Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a tailor podcast here you
can grow your knowledge about marketing operations, listen to ideas and
strategies to help you scale, grow and optimize. Your efficiency drive your
speed to market and enrich your work life. Let's get to it.
Welcome to the art of marketing operations, a tailor podcast, I'm Glen
bottomly, and today my guest is Robert Holmes. Marketing data operations and
analytics at Couch Base an organization which empowers developers to build
responsive and flexible cloud mobile in edge computing applications that scale
effortlessly using an award witting distributed, no sequel cloud database,
delivering unmatched versatility, performance, skill ability and
financial value across cloud on premise, hybrid, distributed cloud and edge
computing deployments thanks for joining me today, Robert Yeah, no
thanks! So much gin for having me well Robert One of the things that I thought
was interesting about your linked in profile. Is You really focused on three
words? Listen collaborate and deliver, and that really struck me. Can you just
share a little bit more for our audience about how those three words
have impacted your career? Yeah? Absolutely so I can't fully take credit
for those three words, so my my previous firm that was kind of like
their tag line, but it's actually what led me to want to join the firm right
coming from the consulting industry. Those three things to me are extremely
important and be able to help our clients right, so I mean you could as
on Sol, then you could come in and you could just be like. We know what we're
doing we're the experts you hired us we're going to do it this way, but a
lot of times. You know when you come, and you start you know. Speaking with
cless, you start to kind of dig. It uncover a lot of things that maybe they
didn't even express and sows and things of that nature. So that's where the
listen is really important. For me, you know listening more talking, less
digesting the information collaborating being a team player right working, you
know across the aisle with you know, people on my own team people on the
client side and then delivering obviously delivering excellent. You
know products and things of that nature is in my nature and things I love to
make sure that happened. So wonderful thanks so much for that background,
Robert and speaking of background. Your background is super unique because
you're sort of new to the marketing space, because your background really
came in starting out more as a data scientist, and so I have a number of
questions that I'd like to ask about that. But can you first start and share
a little bit about your background as a data scientist yeah? So I don't even
know Glenn. If I would say I'm fully a ated scientist. I've had the pleasure
of being able to dat o such a big world right like there's so many things that
you can do with it. You can be in date, engineer in commute. A scientist can be
dat analyst, like a data visalia ion like so many different things, and I've
had the ability to kind of take on all those roles kind of throughout my
career so far, which has been great. I actually started out believe it or not
as a web developer. When I first graduated school, you know I was kind
of loving it and then I was like you know. I really don't like sitting at my
desk all day. Every day like I needed to like interact with people in my God,
just is talking to my screech at a bashmet against computer. So from there
I actually took a roll out a start up kind of doing anything and everything
as people from the Sarbono doing that I did that for a while doing a lot of
data stuff, building out databases and things of that nature and then
eventually moved into consulting and that's, I think where I really started
to dig into different industries. You know different fortune, fifty companies
different and just seeing how organizations move like what data are
they collecting? What are they doing? How are they doing it, how they showing
it and that's kind of just what captured me and what's kind of led me
this far in my career, so far, that's wonderful or very early in my career, I
wasn't a classically trained software engineer. I was very much a marketer,
but I have a lot of technology background and early in my career. I
did a lot of software engineering, software coding quite a bit, and so I
know what you mean it is. It is very, very challenging to be a developer, and
I remember there was a day where I got to work about seven, a M. I was coding
all day long and- and I left about seven P M- and I remember not getting
up from my desk once just trying to solve. I was so in the zone from a
software development perspective. It was suddenly it was that moment I was
like wow. This is this is really hard I need to like you. I need to be talking
to more people. I mean year challenging, but your background in that fascination
of data. I remember there was something that you shared with me when we met
before, and you said that data is the new currency and that companies who
master that new currency are going to be the ones most successful at bringing
in the most revenue. So can you just talk a little bit more about that
statement about that importance of data and that data is actually the new
currency, W L? What do you mean by that yeah I mean, if you think about it, or
our world has evolved right, like technology is in everything that we do
has been infused and everything we do from computers to our cars to the cash
registers. Everything we do is you you know. Some type of machine is tracking
that right. So when I talk about currency, you think about, for instance,
think about facebook right facebook, what they do, what do they do? They
collect information on on us. Like we go on Facebook, we do our thing and
then they have their advertising platform for marketers right, so they
can target specific people, and so that's kind of what I mean by the
currency right you're, going to have companies who are selling to you. Have
companies who have specific apis right that developers may connect to to get
data so that they can do their things day. A scientists may go get API data,
so they can, you know, make models and things of that nature. So the more data
that there is out there, the more data people want right. It's just this is
going to continue to go and we're seeing again across every industry from
you know, from marketing to electric vehicles with with you know, like you
think, about like test land, things of that full self driving like they're
collecting data, and that data is only going to empower organizations to
understand you know their customers better they're, going to understand the
world better and essentially, and so the people who are good at doing that
are going to know more yeah it data but gets data once you once you see the
power that day that allows you to to have how you can leverage it. You just
want more. So I very much agree with you on that. So, let's now move forward
now, so we've talked a bit about your data background, your a fascination
with data, your review as of data as a new currency. So let's talk a little
bit about how you've now transitioned a bit into now a marketing role at couch
base, and how are you sort of thinking about utilizing data to improve overall
marketing operations, just in general yeah? I think, for you know, for this
role me coming in there's again, there's so much data right when you
talk about, we know we're selling a product, we're selling software right
to our customers, and we want to know you know different things about our
customers. What do they like like? What? What things do they like about the
product? What things don't they like? What are these, who are who are target
audiences or are they developers or the cloud developers like or the architects?
We want to know those types of things so as we're starting to get information
and we're getting data. We need to look at it from not just to what it is right
now right, but be able to understand to where it's going to take us. So I like
to look at it and kind of those three phases right when I first came in it
was like all right. Let's look at you know: Where have we been? Where are we
now? Where do we want to go right and, with you know, ants answering those
three questions, then you take those right and you look at our date and go
okay. How can we take the data we have and start to tell that story? So that's
kind of you know where I'm coming in is collecting the data and really trying
to dig in and make those you know hypotheses of like how can we grow our
business? How can we make sure our customers are satisfied and all those
things in between yeah, and I think that that's one of the key challenges
that I know that I hear from peers? It's particularly in marketing
operations roles is there's the Sea of data that you have, but you know for
what you were saying: Where have we been? Where are we now? Where can we go,
but what's what's your best advice for our audience in terms of how do you go
about taking that Sea of data that you have and how do you then move that and
move your organization to more insights? That says the data show this. We should
now do that. How do you make that transition from data insights? Yeah?
That's a great question, so I think a lot of times what I would tell people
is, especially in kind of the state that we're in now, like I said,
everybody's collecting data everybody's, doing alte things there tons of
software a lot of organizations that I've seen in my career or
reactive, rather than proactive when it comes to their data right so think
about it. For you know, let's just say we're talking about sales data right,
we're looking at sales and we're like all right, we're doing great
everything's, fine, let's just keep pushing along, and then we get to the
next quarter and we're like wait a minute ourselves are not what we
project it. What happened right so now we're scrambling trying to you know,
connect the dots and figure out what's going on, and so then the clients are
like. Okay. What are we? What do we do? Maybe we need more software. Maybe we
need to you know, change this up, and so that's what that's? What I really
try to get people to focus on, as this is collecting data is, is a a long hall
thing. It's not something that you can transform overnight is not something
you can gather overnight. It's something that takes time and it's a
process, obviously with businessess moving super fast and wanting to grow.
Sometimes we kind of neglect our data right, we're just like you know, we'll
put it wherever we'll do with it later, but the longer you do that the longer
you're kind of you know cutting yourself off at the at the ankles,
almost and so out, really to say focus on one subset of data. At a time.
There's no need to try to
you know, merge everything at one time. There's not the need to just you know,
buy more software to try to bring in everything focus on one upset at a time
whether it's we're going to focus on cleaning up our selves for data, we're
going to focus on cleaning up our marquet data focus on one thing at a
time and you'll be able to start to make those insights and you'll also be
able to kind of figure out. How mature your organization is to be able to
decipher different things from the data m yeah. I think you know to kind of
recap what you're? What you are saying is you know this focus on instead of
utilizing data in just a reactive sense. How do you use data to be more
proactive? I loved your comment about focusing on one subset of data at one
time, because I think to your point: There's there's a tendency, I think, to
try to boil the ocean, but if you can focus in just one area, get that locked
down you're going to have a much better possibility of being able to say. Okay,
I know that these data are correct and and accurate and now we're comfortable.
Here now we can go to the next group and or Martek stack or set of data and
and proceed from there and then to your point. That gives you that sense of
where is your organization where's your organization at overall? So so, let's
take a scenario then, where let's say some of our listeners go to do that.
But then maybe let's say that they're still not getting the traction that
they need from a marketing operations perspective they're, trying to be as
proactive as they can they're trying to make the connections internally their
subset ing their data they're, trying to make sure that each of those are
there but they're realizing that their organization is still yet not as mature
as they need to be and there's maybe some still ongoing frustration. What
advice would you give to that marketing operation, team, yeah, good question? I
would say one to breathe again. You know it's it. It is a process to get to
a point where you're like okay, we're on a good spot where our data is, I
would say, if there's still kind of that, maybe frustration like we're.
Just we're not getting the insights we need, I would say, almost take a step
back right because a lot of times we gather data were like it's clean. We
like it it. You know. We have these Nice Handy, Dandy reports that you know
tell us, you know XYZ, but I would say, take a step back and start asking
questions right. So ask the questions before you even look at the data. What
are the questions that you have? What are the questions that are not answered
that she would like to answer? For instance, let's say hey how what
segment of our customers right are buying x product and why? Okay? So
there's your question. So now you go back and you look at your data and you
answer the question. I think a lot of times we can get really stuck on,
especially in these mar tec stacks that come with kind of these premade reports
and Dash Boards, and it looks pretty and it looks shiny and it's like. Oh,
it's green, it's red, but that isn't always answer questions and I think
that's where there's a lot of imbalance and and different organizations,
because we're stuck on visuals and not one ask answering the questions.
I think that's a powerful, powerful statement in terms of the importance of
asking the question, because to your point I would imagine that if you don't
it's sort of like in my mind, it's sort of like technology development that, if
you, if you just think about technology and what can technology do for the
market, you can get whip sad, really easily that the technology is just
going to take you over here. noral technology is going to take you over
there, but it's not actually asking the right question to your point, which is
you know? Where should we? Where do we want to go as an organization? And what
information do I need? What questions to your point? What questions do I need
to answer for the organization and how can I get the data to answer those
critical business questions so that we can actually get to that end? Point
correct, yeah, yeah and, and it's kind of, like you said like when I was
talking earlier right. When I talk about the you know: Where have we been
where we are? Where are we going? The? Where are we going is almost more
important than the first two right, because because our world around us is
constantly Eboli when we're talking about marketing, we are marketing to
people, and people are evalving right. Like I'm, not the same person, I was
when I was twenty right. You know I may have bought a house, I may have kids, I
may have a dog all these different things that you know may have happened
over the customer journey that could change who they are, but you still want
to retain them, usually as a customer in some former fashion. So you always
need to be think forward. Thinking, okay, what's the next thing? What how
are we going to retain these people? What where are they going to go? And
even I mean you think about now? We we're now moving away from social media
and now we're talking about the metaverse right, so it's like you've
got always got to be on top of things, because your data is going to change,
and so, if I know hey, here's the next thing, the MENA versus n, the next
thing. I am already thinking. Okay, what what? How is that going to impact
our business? What do we need to start collecting now so that when this
becomes the thing we're already set recently on NPR, there was a the person
that Mark Sucker had assigned to the development of the metaverse at
facebook was on and said very much a similar comment here about this is a
you know, a nascent. You know early. You Know Techno Technical Development,
it's going to take a long time, the arc of that in terms of market adoption
will take a while, but one of the things that I thought was so
fascinating about that I'd be interested in your view is because of
data is changing so much and because to your point, marketers market to people.
Ultimately, we are consumers at hard, whether we are in a Beta space or we
are a consumer and a bed C environment. We ultimately are a
consumer and- and so- and I know that there's so much research now about how
the our experiences as a consumer is influencing our expectations as a B to
b buyer as well. We need things to be frictionless. We want things to be very,
very simple and easy, and one click, and it's just it's got to be that
simple, but one of the key things that I think you've mentioned is a challenge
is because of those changes, whether it's facebook or other. You know big
data companies, there's so much information that is now known about
consumers and about you know us as buyers in a bet space when you think
about privacy and you think about how privacy has changed because of how
technology has allowed us to learn so much more about the buyers. I can you
just talk a little bit about. How are you sort of viewing privacy in light of
data, and specifically, how are you looking at data utilization through
that Lens of privacy? Yeah, I mean, like you, said, we're all consumers to
right like I, my data is going somewhere to somebody. I'm sure I think
privacy is extremely important and I am an advocate of it, because I believe
that you know it can be misused, as we know, we've seen before.
Just you know looking at Dat, ax and things of that nature. I do think that
we're at a point right now, where really the world is trying to
understand, really the complexity of data. I think people a lot of people
that I've even talked to just you know personally are like, oh so, and so has
my data is like you really have no idea what data they have right and most of
these companies crazy enough. If you're to go on some of these social media
site, you can download your entire data like history, people don't even know
that they don't even know like what's being taken. So when I think about it,
a privacy. I don't know that it'll become this big thing where people were
just like taking me off the Internet forever. I don't think that is the case,
because people do want those customized experiences right. You like it. I mean
I like it right when I go in a APP- and you know target knows that I like this
stuff for Amazon, knows I like this stuff, it's convenient. We want the one
click, the easy gratification, but where I do see you know some room for
things to be kind of
change is the selling of our data. We talked about that right. The the
currency piece, I think, that's, where we're going to see a lot of the privacy
laws and things kind of probably hunker down on is just like. Okay, you can't
sell this person sat if you want to collect it and use it for your own
internal to do Xyz, okay, as long as they oped in cool, but it's the selling
the data. You know across different organizations, and you don't know where
you're did you know Dat's getting sold to. I think that's what we you know
we're going to have to focus on it and make sure that organizations aren't
collecting the wrong thing
and what advice robber can you give to our audience about how they should
incorporate or plan for privacy, for example? If I share an example:
accessibility, accessibility on websites today, whether it's you know
the WC standard accessibility- is such an important thing for users that so
that they can. Every single user can can utilize. You know the website and
have a good experience, whether they're color blind, whether they have a
disability. What have you, but one of the best ways to incorporate
accessibility? Is You build it in from the beginning? You build it in from
design it is. It is something that I know: companies like Apple Microsoft,
etcetera, the the the accessibility is just something core to what they do. Do
you believe that privacy and how marketing operations teams and how they
are using data, should privacy be sort of that consideration, meaning were
constantly sort of checking in on a regular basis with privacy? Hey? How
were we doing? Okay, we're going to keep going down this pat? Oh? How are
we doing on privacy, or do you believe privacy has got to that level of
importance that privacy really has to be integrated at the core activity
level for data and data management for marketing operations teams? You know
everywhere, I think, even not even just for marketing operations right, just in
general, its privacy accessibility. Those things should be top of mine when
we're in going through the initial design. Before you're even doing
development right, so when you're thinking about you know here all our
features, Yatala, here's how we're going to build off the data warehouse
or whatever the case may be. That needs to be the top thing it should be. A
check box is this. You know, is this Pii is this you know. Is this
information that shouldn't go out like how were we mattare masking the data?
Are we scrambling in date, what are encrypting our data? All those things
should be at top of mine, because it only takes one time right for something
to get taken. You know, God forbid something you know hacked and it
becomes a bigger problem. So that's why I should always be top O on. I
appreciate that. That's, I think that's really good advice, Robert. So let's
actually talk about in shift gears a little bit to those tool sets that we
use in a marketing operations, environment, Mar Tech Stack, etc.
Clearly there are so many systems and and platforms that modern marketers
today we utilize all day every day in our marte stacks, so because there are
so many tools, because there are so many ways and interconnections between
these platforms. What advice can you give and provide to our audience about
how to align efforts across Marte stack platforms just to target the right
customers? Yeah I mean there are like you said there are so many different
mortication and they're constantly spinning up new ones every day, even
from what I've seen already just just being in this role. kind of going back
to what I said before is focusing on one thing: at a time right, you can
have multiple systems on one of my pet peeves about really software systems in
general is in order for us to understand our data. We cannot depend
on another company to interpret that for us right. So when I'm thinking
about you know implementing a new mar tec sack or you know just deciding
whether we should keep one or not one of my first things is okay. Do we have
access to our own data right? Is there an API? Can we export our data out of
your system into our own plot and to our own data, wear house and to our own
platform so that we can do our own analysis and get our own insights
because, like I said the the you know, cookie cutter ones that are going to be
in a lot of these more text? Sects are great and they tell you, you know great
things, but if you're, using five or six different, Martek platforms right
you're, going to a lot of P, especially your executives are going to want to
see things at a high level. They're going to want to see everything and one
view one executive Dash, warter view, and so that's why I think is really
important. When I'm you know talking to people is like hey. Is this doer? Are
we going a have access to our data? Are we going to be able to pull it out
because of what happens if we want to switch right if we want to switch from
Google an Alec, a Dobe analytics like? Are we able, to put you know, Trans
Bring our data with us, because, if we're not then we're starting over and
that that put you back a couple of steps well- and it seems to me that,
back to your comment earlier about the importance of understanding the
question in the question that you need to answer for your organization, this
seems to come back full circle. For me too, because to your point, a Mar TEXTA
technology provider. They cannot necessarily envision every single use
case that every one of their customers are going to be using. So if you view
their data dashboards, they're reporting, if you take that as Gospel
in saying that, that's the only way that I should be interpreting the data
of what their Martea is providing me, you may actually veer off. If I'm
hearing you correctly, you may actually veer off the direction of data
interpretation that you need to accurately correct answer those
questions, because they might not that Marche stuck provider might not be
envisioning. The type of question you're trying to answer. So if you only
look at the way that the Martie provider shares with you hey here's our
platform, you shere's, here's our preset pre canned dash words. Here's
how you should look at this. You may actually be doing your organization a
disservice because you might not actually be answering the question. You
need answered correct exactly and that's why I say start with a question
right because you have all these different, like I said, Mar Tech stacks
and they provide insights. But a lot of times when we were seen looking at all
these different platforms, I mean I'm looking at my book mark thing right now
and I can see all the different Mar Tex sets right and what I like to call a
lot of people get. You know, analysis, paralysis right, you have so much like
you said that Sea of data you're, looking at so many things that you just
almost get paralyzed by like okay. What what am I looking for again right? And
so that's why I say: Go back to what's the question first and then go look at
the data and that way, you're not losing sight of the actual goal of what
you're doing what you're doing, M and sort of the taking at one bite at a
time that you're coming about the same notion of looking at one subset of data
at a time, probably to your point, connecting Martek stacks together,
taking one integration at a time as well. I would imagine that you would
probably feel that would be a way to tackle the integration side as well.
Absolutely I mean just t'see n. There is a way, but for you to be able to
actually do analysis analysis is taking a subset of data right and you're,
taking a or just data in general and you're breaking it down. Right, let's
just say, let's say: you've got a you've got a seported, a you take it
you chart it, you get it on a histogram right, so you got a histogram. You see:
okay, everything's fine, then we've got a huge jump and then it comes back down
right. What? If i see that i immediately want to go and look at okay,
what is this big spike here and i want to dive into that? I want to you, know
double click into that. I want to drill down and see what's going on there
because they're mayor they may there may be more that we want to know they
may be telling us something right like maybe something that we did. Some
promotion that we ran really did something for a certain base of people,
and we know that we can do something there, whereas if you just got all
these dash wars and here's my histogram and here's my line chart and it's like
everything, looks good. No, nothing too crazy. You lose. You lose a lot of
those insights in an also yeah good point, and so, when you think about you
know, as you were just saying, as you drill down, but
obviously marketing operations as a function, a lot of different hats of
that marketing operations. Team members need to wear, and so, when you think
about the traits or the skills that a marketing operation in poe, you know in
a team, member really would need to have to be able to accurately and
effectively go in and drill in get that information etc. What are you? What do
you see as being sort of the top traits? And this isn't? I think you are
uniquely situated here to answer this question because
of your data background, but be also your marget megaron, so that i'll be
interested in your point of view like what have you found to be the best mix
of traits yeah, so the first one i would say- and this probably goes
through a lot of different roles, but in the data space like i said because
we've talked about all the different things that are happening with data, i
would say the first thing would be flexibility right. I say that because,
like we talked about earlier from a marketing perspective, our customers or
people and these people are evolving right, they're, consistently changing
they're doing different things. You know you look at. I was looking at this
graphic from the other day and it was showing like the age, a lot of the
companies out right now, so you think about instagram and facebook and
twitter and, like fifteen years ago they didn't exist. You know fifteen
twenty years old, they didn't exist, so you think about the next fifteen to
twenty years. What is that going to look like? Where are people going to be
where av our customers going to be using? So i think less flexibility is
key because you have to be able to go okay. The old way we did is not working
anymore. We have to you know we have to look toward doing xyz doing that yeah.
So i think the other thing too would be for them to be analytical right, and i
say that because marketing in general touches pretty much every part of the
business right. We're touch we're talking to our sales. People were
talking to finance, we're talking to the product teams, we're talking to the
developers, we're talking to everybody and we're gathering information. Not
just you know from our you know from our customer data, but we're also
gathering data from internally from people to understand who should we be
targeting what do e our sales people need what you know. How much can we
spend a target these people? What is the product? How do we, you know, you
know: how do we market e the new features and new things like that, so
to be able to take all of this information all the day that were
getting externally and internally and then come up with a plan to you know,
do thing you've got to be analytical, i think, and then i would say, probably
the last trait i'm going to go out on a limb here. This one, i would say
innovative. I think innovation is even in data in the marketing space is
really important, like i said, because of things are all constantly changing
our customer basis, changing technology, especially for a company like the one
i'm at where you know technology stacks are constantly changing, got to be able
to understand. You know what we're marketing and who we're marketing to it
all times, and sometimes that means all right: we've got to change up. The way
were marketing like hey. Maybe we need to go market on tick top and i'm sure
people you know, pass my age to be like what is the tick tock? But you know,
maybe that's you know what we need to do right. So that's why i say the
innovative, don't be afraid to kind of just jump out there and try new things,
because that's honestly what our customers hurd doing, they're always
trying to things yeah well and that that's a good sigue into how about this
question, which is you know back to your example about tick tock. So if you
were going to make a recommendation to our audience that what would you say
that every marketing operations executive should stop doing today and
what should they start doing today and i think you may have just hit on part
of it? You know with your innovation comment, but any other thoughts on what
marketing operations executive should stop doing today and start doing today.
Yeah. So i would say i mean we talked about the innovation piece, but i'll
come back to that. The first thing i would say, stop doing is making
decisions off of intuition
right old school is like. I know this guy. I know like it's been this way for
thirty years. Forty years is the way it's going to go, and it's like we got
to stop doing that. I am such a huge jabe use your data, your data tells you
where you are where you've been, and it can tell you where you're going to go.
If you use it the right way. So it's great. If you have a good feeling about
a deal or something like that, that's great it can help you right, but the
date is going to tell you. Is this client actually going to close like do
they even have the budget? Because it's great, if you're talking shop and
they're like yeah, love the product, then you find out through data. They
don't have the budget, it doesn't help you. So that's where i say the
intuition piece is only as good as you know a little bit and then the other
part would be. You know, stop being afraid to be innovative right and maybe
that's a start that we could say start being innovative. The flip that the two
sides in the same cool, yeah yeah, that's excellent. Well, robert, before
we wrap up today's episode, what would you say is the main takeaway that you
want to leave our audience with in understanding the challenges facing
marketing operations executives today, yeah o question. I would just say you
know: there's tons of data. We've talked about this right like there's
data everywhere all across the world and don't be afraid to use it. You can
use it to your advantage, but you can also use it to your disadvantage right
so being careful and taking over time, data will always be here as long as
you're being proactive about what's to come, then you'll be able to continue
to conquer the challenges from you know whether state of privacy or different
customer bases things of that nature. I think it's just like, i said just be
proactive, just think big go after it and take your time. I love that be
proactive. Take your time and remember, it all starts with the question. Well
that wraps up this episode of the art of marketing operations. Thank you so
much for joining us today, robert until next time stay safe, take care and
thank you for listening
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